I think one core issue is Protestant evangelical churches have become “all about me” whereas they used to be “all about God.”

A friend told me he heard an NPR program about a guy who went ‘undercover’ in a church to find out what the religious right was all about. His conclusion? Oh, it’s nothing to worry about, they’re all just practicing amateur therapy on one another (!)

Your story about the Marines rappelling from the ceilng (what does that have to do with salvation anyway?) reminds me of a christmas production I went to at the Crystal Cathedral. It was a beatiful show, spiritual and moving, with a huge cast and a good size menagerie with including camels and everything. (I was waiting for an animal to poop during the wisamn scence, but no luck.) Anyway, the Cathedral had hired a flying team to whiz the angels around the auditorium for the different scens that involved them. It was a little embarrsing because I was there with family and the angel costumes were a bit sheer and when they were backlit, well.. At the end of the show they had what we refered to later as the “ANGEL-ORAMA, there must have been fifteen of them flying around the place. Before that is was a beatifully done show, I actually teared up when Mary sang, but I came away with the feeling that showbiz ultimately took over. Kind of indicative of large church america.

I heard that straight from theologian/author R.C. Sproul.

One of the last churches I went to was wholly given over to marketing mania: on July 4th they advertised the indoor fireworks they would have during the worship service, along with Marines rappelling form the ceiling. (Lord, who will deliver us from the showbiz?) Anther day, you could wear your favorite team football jersey to church and a football star would address the congregation. (In pigskin we trust?) Then there was the wretched knee-slappin’ country music everyone loved, performed occassionally.

I reminds me of the Annie Dillard line about how she’d much rather encounter the “dark night of the soul” -whatever it was- than face the dread hootenanny in the church.

Showbiz aside, this wealthy downtown church spent only $14,000/year on missions, and their big marketing emphasis was on attracting future occupants of the ritzy condos going up just east of the church -vs. reaching out the the poor occupants north of the church.

LesbianNeoCon: That’s a funny story, but I feel for you. 10! Wow! They must’ve tasted good. I’d tell you my story but this is a family site. Well, I’ll tell you a bit. I’m not sure what was in the concoction that finally did me in, it was mixed by a bar owner I knew. (I was out drinking with a friend.)

But before that night, I used to hate seeing these stupid men drink too much in the bar- there was usually about 3 of them, and then they would fall into the bar stools in front of the bandstand. I used to always think “I can’t stand these idiots. They act like kindergartners.” Then when I drank that one drink too many- it was all like slo-mo…I was falling, falling, slowing, and my last thoughts were: “Oh great! I’ve become one of the idiots! I’m falling into the barstools!”

I can state this with confidence, because Augustine discussed this very topic in his epochal work, “Civitas Dei” (“City of God”). Augustine wrote that because God is so much greater than we are, we cannot begin to comprehend what’s on His mind. Therefore, we cannot discern God’s purpose in anything that happens in the world, that it is indeed blashemous for us to think that we can. Now, Augustine did believe that God has a plan for the world, and that History is indeed going somewhere because God wants it to. He knew this because Jesus had come and that was certainly a divine intervention. It’s just that we can’t begin to fathom what God’s purpose is behind anything else that happens.

Augustine wrote “City of God” shortly after the Sack of Rome of 410 A.D. This was the first time in 800 years that Rome had been sacked, and was evidence that the end of the Empire was not far off. The shock this caused throughout the Roman world was unimaginable. It was much worse that 9-11. EVERYBODY was horrified – Christians and pagans both.

And the reading of God’s mind and the accusations of divine retribution flew around even then. The pagans said that Rome had been sacked because the gods had abandoned Rome after Rome went Christian. Christians, on the other hand, had expected that because Rome had now embraced the One True Faith, God would surely reward Rome and be on its side. Imagine their surprise when God was apparently unfazed. Finally, they decided that the Sack of Rome must be delayed punishment for Rome’s previous decadence and persecution of Christianity.

It was into this environment Augustine penned “City of God.” It is the voice of a mature, sane, nondepraved adult speaking. One could call Augustine the ultimate non-narcissist. We need more of his thinking today.

Let’s assume for the moment that Robertson was correct in believing that God would strike down anyone who would divide the land of Israel. I’m no Biblical scholar, and I make no pretension to understanding what the Bible says here, but let’s just assume that’s correct.

What are the conclusions we must draw to nonetheless agree with Robertson’s conclusions:

1. That God has been remarkably unconcerned about the division of the land since the death of Solomon, but is particularly concerned about Ariel Sharon’s positions in January 2006 (or, to be more exact, early Tevet, 5765). Remember, Gaza was never part of the Land of Israel, so giving it up to the Palestinians was not an act that divided the land; we’re only talking about future plans.

2. That the people who tolerated the existence of a Jordan (i.e., the entire international community), which in and of itself divides the land, are immune from any of God’s wrath, but Ariel Sharon is not.

3. That God knew that Sharon (a) could have actually pulled off a partition of states; and (b) considered it an end in and of itself and not a temporary means to his long-proclaimed goal of an Israel that covered the entire Biblical Land of Israel.

4. That every other person who was failing to do everything in his or her power to create such an Israel–including Pat Robertson, who, after all, is sitting on his duff in a TV studio instead of toting an Uzi to expand Israel–was off the hook, but not Sharon.

5. That killing or permanently disabling an old man somehow was the correct retribution against him for all of the above, as opposed to, say, arranging for him to lose the upcoming election, leaving his enemy Netanyaho in power (which, imho, would have been far more the equivalent of hell for Arik Sharon than either life in a vegetative state or the actual Gehenna).

Well, hooey.

I hear you on your reaction to the evangelical church. There is a huge backlash movement in the protestant church against organized religion. People are just tired of being bossed around by self serving jerks. Biblical Christianity has nothing to do with much of what goes on in churches today. Don’t be disheartened, if you are. God is still good, even if his message has been co-opted by selfish a**holes.

I too have done some seminary time, but not on the level you seem to be on. I had some really good professors who honestly loved God and were incredible intellectuals.

Lesbianneocon,

God chose the Jews as a vessel of truth to transcend the generations. He chose them because they are stubborn and stiff necked. The Jewish people were a constant pain in God’s a**, but it seems he made the right choice. He is after all God… Incidentally, as I see it God still has a physical covenant with the Jews, even from a Christian standpoint.