PJ: Thanks to you also for the conversation. I think we can look forward to increased legislation in the area of illegal immigration in the weeks and months ahead. Stay tuned to the Senate and also Bush’s response. Take care.

Nice to hear you weigh in. I agree with you, to some degree on the notion that illegals are not just taking jobs that Americans don’t want. In the construction industry it is fairly well known that there is a general shortage of skilled construction workers. This could be taken care of by raising wages for construction workers, and wages could be raised by legalizing all of the illegals that are currently working. This would take away the incentive for the employers to hire them becasue they would then have rights and could demand a higher wage, this would float the wages higher for everyone.

Vicki:

I think we have pretty well defined our impasse. I could debate this with you further, but I am not certain we have anything to learn from each other on this for the time being. Thank-you for enganging me on this. I do enjoy the intellectual exercise. And besides, I’m right. =-)

Americans want and need construction jobs. Often, Americans are not permitted the opportunity to work in these fields because the construction companies want the cheap labor and do not have to pay benefits or match taxes for illegal workers.

If laws would pass severely punishing Companies or Individuals who hired illegal immigrants, this would not be as big of a problem. The burden should be on the companies and individuals that hire people entering the country illegally. It should be punishable under the homeland security act as a violation of our nation’s security with a huge financial penalty and jail time for the individual/company that hires an illegal immigrant.

As far as a guest worker program, at some point, they would be asked to leave. They would not leave when asked. They do not obey our laws now. They will not obey our laws no matter how we write them. Should we allow another country to dictate our laws to accommodate them?

Many immigrants follow the law and apply for citizenship. Why should we discriminate for certain nationalities?

Let me say that I was/am speaking in terms of dealing with a massive ILLEGAL immigration problem, not legitimate, legal immigration. We need to be clear on that.

I agree with you that immigrants have long been a source of strength for America. After all, we are a nation of immigrants, aren’t we? My own sailed from England to America in 1635 on the Angel Gabriel and others immigrated in the 1800s from Ireland. All looking for a better life.

PJ, why is that before all the massive illegal immigration our meat got packed, our lawns were cut, our children watched, our homes cleaned? I resent the idea that many try to promote that we simply can’t manage our affairs or to run our country without illegals from Mexico. These are jobs that Americans have always filled and still can. The only benefit is that they come so cheap. But Americans are subsidizing the costs in terms of higher taxes to pay for ILLEGALS welfare, education, housing, free medical, etc. Not really so cheap now, is is. I’m fed up with it.

Illegals come from Mexico NOT to be Americans but for personal economic reasons (jobs) and seek only to advance their own selfish causes. They resent the idea of assimilation, and want to pursue their own culture and language from Mexico at TAXPAYERS EXPENSE. They also usually vote in terms of their own private interests, not for what is best for America. They come here ILLEGALLY and then when they are exploited (ha!) these Mexican organizations beat into their heads what victims and there young grow up actually resenting America and with a chip on their shoulders.

The facts are out there in terms of the problems with illegal immigration. You can say all you want about how great these people are, how hardworking, how wonderful, etc., but the bottom line for me (and should be for all of us) is that they are doing it ILLEGALLY!

You also say you favor massive immigration. I DO NOT! So we have a difference there. The primary reason I don’t support “massive immigration” is because we simply lack the room to sustain this, the open space. that is unless you want to live like sardines and destroy all wild areas. I love the land PJ and I will NEVER support that.

Best to you, friend. Time to make supper.

[I fixed most of them, but there is one element not fixed as I didn't quite understand what you meant. -- Editor]

I think one of the fundamental differences to our approach is that I am largely a fan of massive immigration.

I think it has been demonstrated adequately that immigrants have long been one of Amerca’s greatest strengths. Throughout history American immigrants have followed a similiar pattern. When they arrive they are penniless and destitute, and they require a fair amount of assistance. They are also hungry and ambitious, they will do anything to get a job, and will do anything more to better their place in life. Liberal free market capitalism runs on risk, and immigrants have already taken a huge one, so a few more aren’t that big of a deal.

The second generation immigrants, while they carry a large part of their parents home culture, become very Amercanized and integrated. Many times children of immigrant parents strive to obtain excellent educations, because the parents understand that this is the way for opportunity in America. A rising tide floats all boats. The more educated and ambitious people we have in America, the better off we are as a country.

Immigrants tend to start small businesses. There are at least a handful of large cities in America that are marketing themselves to immigrant populations. The cities that tend to do this are stagnant because their native populations have no ambition beyond working for someone else, so they don’t start new enterprises. Immigrants have no inhibitions in this, because America is the land of opportunity, that is why they struggled so hard to come here in the first place.

The city I live in has a large population of eastern European refugees. When these people arrived they were piss poor and required a lot of assistance, over time they have started businesses of their own and bettered their places in life, and bettered the area that they moved into. My ex-wife’s father was an illegal immigrant who became a resident alien under the amnesty in the eighties. As soon as he had legal rights he spent his life savings to buy a type of metal working machine that he had learned to use in the course of his work. (He was a janitor at a shop, he would work as hard as he could to complete his work, and with his spare time he would train on this machine). His business started very small, in a tiny shop behind his house with a 3,000 dollar capital investment. 10 years later he was grossing 250,000 out of that same tiny shop in his back yard, and finally chose to move a much larger location and hired several full time employees. He sent all his children to good colleges, no loans, paid every dime out of his own pocket. He didn’t fill a job no one else wanted, he created his own niche and became a much larger nefit ot society.

I entirely disagree with the idea of “Americans first.” I worked in the union long enough to understand the weakness of a protectionist mentality. It weakens the protectionist far more than the ones they are trying to protect themselves from. America is strong when we fight tooth and toenail for everything that we have. With an “Americans first” mentality we start to feel that we are owed the privileges that we have, that they are our birthright. We become a nation of useless trust fund babies that any small outside force can collapse like a house of cards. Also, jobs are not a zero sum game. If an immigrant takes a job he isn’t “taking it away” from an American. The American has the opportunity to continue his search for gainful employment, and may just as easily find a job opening created by the influx of creative capital, and consumer capital provided by that same immigrant population.

One of the largest employers in my city is a major player in the chip manufacting industry that was started by a Cuban immigrant. I have a multitude of friends that feed their families because this man “took” some Americans opportunity at a good education and used his ambition to think ahead a little.

I find it short sighted and self defeating to limit immigrant populations to jobs that Americans don’t want. That is what France did with their northern African immigrant population, and they have reaped a whirlwind as a result. You can blame that whole mess on the Muslims, but we have a large Muslim immigrant population too, and they don’t act like that..

My proposal is to allow anyone who wants it, and is qualified (criminal history, etc..) to get a permanent resident alien card in the U.S. Of course this could be revoked at anytime for criminal behavior, or for just being a mooch on the system, anbd probably a few other things. Each recipient of the permanent card will pay a tax, let’s say fifty a month, for the first three years that they live here in order to pay for all the paperwork and processing that it takes to bring them here in the first place, and helps track said immigrant. (The money comes out of their paycheck, so now you know where they are working).

The benefits would be this. All the money that is currently being used to run the immigration side of the INS could then be diverted to the security side of the INS. Security would be greatly enhanced because the people who want to be here for legitamate reasons will jump at the opportunity to register. Now when you catch and illegal somewhere you can spend a little more time investigating why they are here, because the amount of illegals will number in the tens of thousands, not millions, and there will be no reason to illegally immigrate just to get a job.

My position on this is that Americans must get the jobs first if they are available to fill them. Immigrants come second. When they come as a legitimate guest there should be ways that they can travel back and forth between Mexico and the United States pretty much at their ease. They would not have to worry about getting back into America. Also, under this program they would obviously have protections that they don’t enjoy now (primarily in terms of exploitation) and they would be able to change jobs with a lot less hassle and this would be a benefit. Most of these people, PJ, are not ready to start their own businesses by a long shot and as far as job training goes, Americans first and everyone else get in line. We are not in the business of free job training for non citizens except in the case of bonafide student visas and/or exchange student programs. We have to do a better job tracking this system.

It would also be important to provide incentives to return home. We could support incentive savings accounts they could collect when they return home and we could also cooperate fully with their home country in making sure they get credit toward a retirement plan in their native land. Where this does not exist, it should be insisted upon as Mexico has, for too long, ignored and neglected large segments of its population.

I know some will want to stay here. They have entered legally as a guest worker and if they sincerely want citizenship here they SHOULD NOT get any preferential treatment over those who have followed the procedures initially for citizenship. They will have to be placed in line like everyone else on this. And those that want citizenship must speak English and they must take citizenship classes and understand the values and ideals that make America who she is.

The benefits to America of such a program are fairly obvious. It helps protect our borders though the establishment of cooperative work programs, it fills jobs to benefit our economy (again if their are no Americans to fill them) and employers who need willing workers. It also provides for a more caring system, a more honest system that will include adherence to labor laws, fair wages and a healthy job environment.

I may seem a little harsh but I’m fed up. I want to be fair and decent but many of us are fed up with the lack of coherence, enforcement and accountability with regard to rampant and uncontrolled illegal immigration. The burden of which falls on the taxpayers in a handfull of states only.

I agree with your statement almost entirely, I differ on one issue. I think that if someone is worthy of “temporary worker” status that we should just make them resident aliens. My reasoning for this is that a temporary worker will act like a temporary and just get the jobs that they can get, with no eye to the future, because they don’t have one. A resident alien is much more likely to improve their lot by getting job training to get a better job, or by starting a business where they can control more of their own destiny. The problem with illegal aliens is that they have no opportunity to do either, the problem is continued with a “temporary” program. Also,a permanent resident is much more likely to have the stability to be able to send their children to school, which further strengthens our economy and security situation,as compared to the alternative.

As to the security situation, build the wall and put every illegal in jail that you can find, I am all for it, really!! But, it still won’t do much good until you address the issue of legal economic access.

Also new legislation that is moving along toward walling off large sections of shared border with Mexico as well as making illegal immigration a federal crime and increasing penalties for those who hire illegals is all welcome news. Clearly some government leaders are “getting it” but I wonder if we can count on Bush?

What Mexico does not seem to accept is that we have the absolute right to protect ourselves. We have the right to take whatever security measures we need to in order to enforce our laws on our own land.

We will fight their drug smuggling and we are not their welfare system either. If they want to talk in terms of “earned legalization” and a legitimate and cooperative “temporary worker program” they need to start from the place that acknowledges we owe them nothing. They also need to demonstrate they respect us and are interested in obeying our laws. Also, if a person comes here lying and breaking laws, they demean themselves most of all and greatly diminish their chances for truly lifting themselves up.