Somebody alert Jesus! Scientists say he’s wasting his time.
**Please click on the Read More link and scroll for an update**
And might even be bad for you. Of course when a headline gives away the fact that it’s scientists who are conducting a ‘spiritual’ study, one knows what the outcome will be. Not that scientists know what evidence they’re looking for, or have pre-conceived notions about what they’ll find. And not that scientists would ever, ever, discount the supernatural when it comes to issues of life and death. Nah, The Scientist, who worships the Atom, would never expect to find that there is no divine intervention. After all, if we confirmed that, fewer people might think doctors are, uh, God. God forbid.
Scientists Study Prayer Impact on Heart Patients
For people facing surgery or fighting disease, the prayers of others can be a comfort. But a large U.S. study has found that praying for the health of a heart bypass patient has no impact on their surgical outcome. [...]
To their surprise, the researchers found that the third group of heart bypass patients, those who knew others were praying for them, had more surgical complications as a whole than the other two. Another of the researchers, physician Charles Bethea of the Oklahoma Heart Institute, says the doctors do not know if that result is random or not. He says people in this group might have become anxious knowing others were praying for them.
Gee, I wonder if anyone studied the impact of the idea of prayer for the patients on the doctors who were taking care of those people. Until a “study” is willing to address the doctors reaction to the intervention of prayer (especially a subconscious hostile, or passive-aggressive reaction) one really can’t say why that one group did badly. Unless, of course, the doctors somehow treated those patients differently, certainly at a subconscious or in a passive-aggressive way. Not that they’d want to disprove the power of prayer. No, of course not.
Doctors and the fruits of science clearly play an important role in the quality of our lives, but let’s leave the spiritual to those who believe, as we ask those who worship the atom to mind their own business. I would no more ask a doctor about the issue of prayer and faith than I would ask a priest to prescribe meds for me.
UPDATE 3/31:
The backlash begins. Nothing good could come from such tripe, and here’s just one example of how this rank b.s. is being played out:
The Age: Prayer for the ill may do more harm than good
Next time you’re sick consider asking your loved ones not to pray for you. [...]
The praying was done by three Christian groups. It started on the eve of or day of surgery and lasted for two weeks.
Among the first group — who were prayed for but only told they might be — 52 per cent had post-surgical complications, compared with 51 per cent in the second group, who were not prayed for though told they might be. In the third group, who knew they were being prayed for, 59 per cent had complications.
[...]
“Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on whether complications occurred (and) patients who were certain that intercessors would pray for them had a higher rate of complications than patients who were uncertain but did receive intercessory prayer,” it said.
The study was designed only to try to measure the impact of intercessory prayer on heart surgery patients, not to address the existence of God. Most patients believed in spiritual healing and thought friends or relatives would be praying for them as well.
The authors warned it might be impossible to disentangle the effects of study prayer from background prayer, and said a possible limitation was that those doing the special praying had no connection with the subjects.
“Private or family prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, and the results of this study do not challenge this belief,” the report concluded.
Gawd, the arrogance. And they know the belief in prayer isn’t affected just as they know prayer doesn’t work. Thanks Docs. Leftist media is eating this up, and I thought you were supposed to do no harm.
Also, I’m adding into the comments on this thread so please check in there too for a good exchange of ideas as we discuss this further.
UPDATE 4/1:
In another example of how garbage like this spreads like a virus, check out what the Medical News Today website declares about the report:
According to this study, we may conclude the following:
– Praying does not help the patient at all.
– Telling patients that people are going to pray for them does have an effect, but not a good one.
Written by: Christian Nordqvist
Editor: Medical News Today
While they’re right that’s what one should determine as the agenda of the report, but as you can see, it’s being taken as proof, truth, or undeniable ‘evidence” as the atom worshippers like to call it.
Related Link:
Beliefnet: Study: Intercessory Prayer Has No Major Effect on Recovery
Amen, Tammy. Thank You. You’re beautiful.
Since many scientists admit to being agnostics or atheists, I’d like to know what precautions were used to insure the objectiveity of their research methods.
It seems like they’re assuming we all pray for some kind of miraculous healing, and when that doesn’t happen they can say “See! we told you so, prayer doesn’t work.”
They couldn’t be more wrong.
$2.4 million dollars was spent. This study was on the up and up, and even I would have expected different results because I believe that the mind is capable of some healing (maybe just self praying or self meditation, though).
50% of scientists believe in God, and the rest are Agnostic or Atheist.
However, over 98% of scientists believe in evolution and an ancient earth.
Here is a link to the rigidity of the study for those interested in how it was done:
http://tinyurl.com/q9wvz
Hey Bacon,
Of course, in order for this “study” to be taken seriously is must be situated on the presumption that prayer only “works” when you get what you ask for, like prayer is some sort of a vending machine–put your prayer in get your wish. Prayer is not like rubbing a magic lantern. It’s a bit more complicated than that. This “study” is an insult to the complexity and nuance of personal relationships with God. God isn’t a Genie, and the suggestion that this is what prayer is all about only further highlights how out of touch the scientific community is with the nature of faith and the divine.
Tammy, I’m sure you can tell by my name that I am a non believer. That said, I just look at the fact that no amputee has come forward stating God and/or prayer, grew him back a limb. I just don’t take prayer seriously anyways, and of course there is no study possible to take faith away from believers. The study was a waste of money. But the results to me were even worse than I as a non believer expected.
Yes, Bacon, I gathered from your name that you were a non-believer :)
I would also guess, then, that you rely on logic when it comes to how you come to conclusions, another reason why you, too, should reject this “study” as tripe.
After all, they say they’ve proven a negative, which in itself is impossible. As an example, the ultimate claim is that prayer did not help any of the patients. Well, how do they know? Perhaps a patient or two (or many) would not have even survived the surgery and only did so because of prayer. Do you see the problem here? Not only were there no controls, they also have absolutely no foundation to know what impact prayer actually had.
While they see that last group as having done worse, maybe more of that group would have actually died, and their literal survival is due to prayer.
But of course, that couldn’t be considered you see, because the doctors would consider the actual end result of the surgery their doing, and their survival the result of the surgery, not of prayer. The ultimate example of how bias infects science.
Just logically you too should reject even the premise of this let alone claim that it confirms your “expectations.” Frankly, we can see our “expectations”in everything. Why? Because we expect to.
I could easily write for hours on this subject and have read countless books on lives of saints, prayers, prophesy, healings , world religions etc. etc. but I will only say a couple things. First, this is just another failed and fruitless attempt to remove God from our lives by the miserable left. Do they really think that because they are educated in the field of science that we will stop praying and have less faith because they took some surveys? Second, God’s ways are not our ways and God may not answer our prayers the way WE want them answered, but he knows what is best for us and God will answer them the way he sees best for us, even though we cannot understand the reasoning at the time. The enemies of God cannot take God out of the hearts of those who love and trust in Him. They may remove God from everthing else, but not our hearts. As for Bacon, I was wondering if you have ever heard of Lourdes, France. There have been numerous prayers answered there as people pray for healings and walk away either cured on the spot or a healing takes place thereafter, no explaination for the cures but they happened. This still happens today. My personal belief is that no prayer is said in vain. My opinion.
Tammy, what you said on the show and your first comment to Bacon was so on target. Although in my mind (instead of “genie”) I was thinking of the way my pastor said it… that God isn’t our personal “treasure chest” that we can reach into whenever it suits our needs. Neither is our relationship with God like gumball machine, where we just put a quarter in and a miracle pops out.
The study also assumes a prayer is just a prayer. They’ve got it all backward… instead of saying “a possible limitation was that those doing the special praying had no connection with the subjects.” The real variable is each believer’s degree of spiritual maturity and resultant relationship with God. Effective prayer is the result of spiritual growth, not the means.
God also takes into consideration our desires, motivations, and reasons behind the prayers. For example, we could pray for the wrong thing in a given situation because we don’t have all the facts, but God may still honor the desire behind the prayer. In His own way and in His own timing, of course! :o)
Something isn’t quite right with the premise of this discussion, at least for me. Maybe that’s because I take it as a given that God isn’t my errand boy, although I’d like to think He hears my prayers and feels my pains (sort of like Bill Clinton, now that I mention it). I’ve heard some religious people state their belief that all that happens is part of God’s plan. As a Jew, I don’t believe that for a moment. How could the Holocaust be part of God’s plan? If I believed such a thing, I would renounce God. No, some things are the work of men who have chosen the evil path, and their actions visit horror and tragedy upon innocents. Such events are an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, but one cannot accept the gift of free will without also accepting the associated consequences. You knew the job was dangerous when you took it. (Did I sign up for this job? I wonder.)
Okay, maybe it’s all a delusion, and there is no God, and life is a temporary accident of the universe, and that’s all there is to it. If this is the case, then nothing much matters except gratifying our appetites. And even that doesn’t matter, because when we’re dead, then it’s all over, as if it never was. The rational atheist must therefore become a narcissistic nihilist. This is one of the reasons I struggle for faith. Those of us who admit to a religious inclination have, now and again, been accused of clinging to a crutch to childishly protect ourselves from the ugly reality. I don’t see it that way. Religion, under the guidance of an ethical God, is the only force that lifts us above that ugly reality. If it’s a delusion, let’s make it a beautiful one.
Two thoughts:
1. My statistics professor at San Diego State started the class off with this statement: ” Figures don’t lie, but liars can figure. This class will show you how”.
2. Art Bell-late night talk radio, usually dealt with UFO’s–had several experiments with prayer. He would ask the audience to pray for an outcame. He was never disappointed.
To counter Bacon’s argument that no amputee has claimed God grew back a limb. I do know a man who lives in Arkansas who had a major nerve get severed by a bullet that renedered his entire right arm completely useless. He was healed after being prayed for, and the atrophied muscles grew back in front of his eyes. The Marines still send him a disablity check, despite his protest, because he sustained an irrecoverable injury. I know that this was not specifically and amputee situation, but I think it has enough creedence to wash for this discussion. If you would like I could give you the man’s name and where he lives so you can ask him yourself. I have witnessed some less dramatic, but still significant, healings myself, but this one is pretty hard to explain away….
Hmmm. As a caller noted, there have been other medical research finding evidence that prayer benefits patients.
Tammy was un-hypocritical by rejecting positive studies along with the negative study.
However, if this study is up-to-snuff enough to get published in a decent journal, it probably follows the double- or triple-blind rules, statistical rigor, etc.
Am not advocating whether or not the medical effect of prayer SHOULD be studied, but folks will generally study whatever seems interesting. Just because this study didn’t disprove the null hypothesis, doesn’t say anything about the religiosity of the scientists, or how they ‘wanted’ the study to turn out.
Though studies with negative results outnumber studies with positive results, the way to fame is often to get a whale of a positive result. Thats where the Nobels come from. How do you know these guys were not EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED that they got the null hypothesis? Doctors generally want to provide effective treatments. They are generally a pragmatic lot. If prayer would help, doubtful if many physicians would recommend against it. Even if an atheist physician doesn’t believe in God, if he thinks the placebo effect of prayer helps, he might prescribe it, just like he might prescribe a placebo sugar pill in certain cases (which can be proved to work just as good or better than drugs, in some cases).
[...]
The experimental method in THIS STUDY is similar to the method used to validate the effectiveness of a drug. Some patients don’t get the drug, some patients do get the drug, and some get a placebo (tell the patient he is being prayed for). Another possible group would be to tell the patient he is being prayed for, and then don’t pray for him.
[...]
Maybe ya don’t like prayer being tested like a drug, which is OK. But transcendental meditation, vitamins, exercise, various physical therapies, acupuncture… Lots of things are tested the same way. A patient only has so much time to invest in all the POSSIBLE things that might help. If covering all bases, maybe the patient could pay thru the nose for Orgone treatments, voodoo chicken sacrifice rituals, and take every herbal nostrum hawked on the internet. It doesn’t seem completely absurd to try to scientifically sort out which treatments give the best bang for the buck.
[...]
The issue could be studied so many different ways… You could study whether prayed-for patients who died, ‘died happier’, or had a better life before they died, or experienced less pain, or whatever. But other than collect ‘miracle stories’ from the 700 Club, about the best way to find out, is to do a well-designed study.
[This post has been edited for length. Okay, while clearly it appears Tamy Blog commenters are pretty smart and have a lot to say (that's good) I am going to add an instruction for newbies when they register to try to be succinct in their comment posts. I'm not speaking of one-liners by any means, but keeping things even to a few paragraphs is necessary. I don;t know if it's what Tammy is posting on that brings out big thoughts, or what, but the thousands-of-words comments are becoming more regular and I feel bad that I have to edit. Anyway sorry about that jcjr, and welcome to Tammy Blog--ed.]