Welcome Daou Report Readers. When finished with his post, feel free to look around the Tammy Blog.
**Scroll for Update**
Via Breitbart: US Christian broadcaster says Sharon’s stroke divine retribution
US evangelical broadcaster Pat Robertson suggested Ariel Sharon’s stroke was divine retribution for “dividing God’s land” of Israel, igniting his latest trademark controversy.
As the Israeli prime minister battled for life, Robertson seemed to suggest to viewers on his “700 Club” television show that Sharon was being punished for his policies in Gaza and the West Bank.
“The prophet Joel makes it very clear that God has enmity against those who, quote, ‘divide my land.’ God considers this land to be his.
At first, I made this an update to the post that follows, but then felt it deserved it’s own special post. Pat Robertson has been one of those who all too frequently joins in with narcissistic ramblings declaring that he knows what God is up to. He, like others who declare tragedies are implemented by God to punish people, is a menace. Decent Christians everywhere should rebuke him. As we demand that Modern Muslims stand up to the fundamentalist posers in their midst, Christians need to do the same.
Associating the most low of human tendencies and desire–revenge, murder, hate, violence–to a divinity, is the epitome of malignant narcissism. It is the suggestion that the most base of who we are (which we cannot escape as humans) is in fact mirrored in God. It is pathetic, outrageous and is the sort of attitude which leads self-styled “men of God” to believe they have permission to encourage or exact murder in the name of God. Because after all, they reason, God likes it this way.
Robertson’s arrogance seems to move at a par with his detachment from reality. For those of you who have forgotten, here’s a bit of a litany of what Robertson has declared, providing extraordinary ammunition to those who are committed to furthering the demonization of Christianity itself.
In October, he said a recent spate of natural disasters pointed to the end of the world and the imminent second coming of Jesus Christ.
In August, Robertson said the United States should assassinate Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, but later apologized for the remark.
He also suggested voters in a Pennsylvania town should not expect God’s help should they face a natural disaster after they ousted a school board which had mandated the teaching of creationism.
Last year, he suggested that the threat to the United States from liberal “activist judges” was “probably more serious than a few bearded terrorists who fly into buildings,” a reference to the September 11 attacks.
UPDATE 1/6:
Here is the press release from CBN addressing Robertson’s statements.
It’s not helpful. At the end to blame the leftist group People for the American Way for “taking comments out of context” in an attempt to discredit Robertson, is absurd. While PAW is a leftist group and one of our serious cultural problems, Robertson’s words alone speak for themselves, and Robertson discredits himself. I noted earlier that his attitude is manna for leftists as an example of the sort of thoughtless religious fundamentalism that is dangerous and extreme.
Also, I’ve received a number of emails from readers complaining that I’m “Christian bashing.” Snap out of it! I’m addressing here an extremist who makes all Christians look bad. I’ve also received complaints that I’m making this “personal.” On the contrary. I’m addressing this man’s deliberate attempt to claim he speaks for God, and effort to set a tone that fundamentalists have used for centuries to justify man’s violence against man. This is about the condition of our lives, the future and the attempt to politically manipulate major international events. All of which Robertson set in motion as a person who makes public proclamations. He is not off limits, and all of us should indeed come to judgment about the intentions of men like this.
Normally, crap like that would get to me, but I consider the source, and the fact that he has put his foot in his mouth on more than one occassion (see above). Also, he has every right to speak his mind, even if what’s coming out of his mouth is not to my, or anyone else’s, liking. The beauty of this country is that you can do that, and not get your tongue cut out by a lunatic with a dull butter knife. With that said, he better be prepared for the backlash that he is sure to receive. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from accountability.
Way to go Lesbianneocon! Well said.
What will be so revealing about this however is the fundamentalist leftists (and their lapdogs in the old media) will attempt to paint all of Christianity with the Pat Robertson brush. Yet they have no problem excusing the behavior of the vast majority of Moslems who are giving tacit approval to the actions of their radical brothers by not speaking out in a loud, clear and convincing voice.
I am a christian.
PAT ROBERTSON DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ME.
Relate that to Sheehan.
Have a great day
( “In October, he said a recent spate of natural disasters pointed to the end of the world and the imminent second coming of Jesus Christ.†)
Lets see… we have radical Islamists murdering Christians in Muslim countries by the bushel for nothing more than being Christians. We have a world-wide confederacy of Muslim nations devoted to the destruction of Israel. Russia leaning toward cooperation with Muslim nations (Iran most recently). An upward trend in natural disasters. Strange new viruses emerging… yeah, the Bible does speak of these things. Something does seem to be going on here.
( “In August, Robertson said the United States should assassinate Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, but later apologized for the remark.†)
Lets be honest here. Chavez is a certified lunatic who despises the American way of life and has actively worked against our best interests. You don’t have to be religious to make that conclusion. Chavez IS dangerous.
( “He also suggested voters in a Pennsylvania town should not expect God’s help should they face a natural disaster after they ousted a school board which had mandated the teaching of creationism.†)
I thought they only mandated that Intelligent Design could be mentioned.
( “Last year, he suggested that the threat to the United States from liberal “activist judges” was “probably more serious than a few bearded terrorists who fly into buildings,” a reference to the September 11 attacks.†)
No, the “bearded terrorists†are a bigger threat with the liberal “activist judges†a close second.
Pat Robertson doesn’t speak for all Christians by any means but we should be clear on one thing: virtually every religion in existence believes God does in fact intervene and has an interest in the course of human events. Are they all wrong?
Jefro
“Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.” Bullet-Tooth Tony, 2000
“Pat Robertson doesn’t speak for all Christians by any means but we should be clear on one thing: virtually every religion in existence believes God does in fact intervene and has an interest in the course of human events. Are they all wrong?”
Jefro, you are right, 100%, but I think the point that folks are trying to make is, who is Robertson that he has the presumption and arrogance to know what God is doing? There is no way that Robertson can say with any certainty that this is God bringing judgement, for this reason….Unless Robertson is a prophet, but…well, I wont go there
In the meantime, by RObertson being all about punishment and judgement from God, just gives the left more ammunition to fire back on religion and God.
Its a vicious circle 🙂
God bless you Jefro, have a great day
“In the meantime, by RObertson being all about punishment and judgement from God, just gives the left more ammunition to fire back on religion and God.”
Agreed. I suppose I should be used to this by now.
Jefro
“You’ll get nothing and like it!†Judge Smalls, 1980
Miss Bruce…Pat Robertson is a indefatigable supporter of Israel, as well as Ariel Sharon. Think you, and a few others, might just be misinterpreting the meaning behind his recent remarks?
What he said was not, in any way, shape, or form, a personal attack on Mr. Sharon.
…nice to read some of the others’ comments. It’s obvious that their gripe isn’t with Pat R’s recent statement.
Just because Pat Robertson is a supporter of Isreal doesn’t mean he knows what is best for it. Many so called supporters of Isreal are against what Seron is doing. What he is stating what he wants to be true. He has nothing but evil in his heart for Sharon and wants to justify it by proclaiming God wants it too.
Listening to the show right now and wanted to comment on several different issues brought up.
Tammy– I believe what you call a contradiction is God’s Permissive Will and His Overruling Will. It’s not hard to believe they both exist. Just as God’s Soverignty co-exists with man’s free will. (that is the naturally occuring system that I believe you are referring to) Either way, nothing happens apart from His Knowledge or Will.
I thought you believed in the supernatural. To deny that God is ultimately in control or that He couldn’t, through Divine Guidance of men be the author the Bible, is to deny that He is a Supernatural Being.
Having said that, where Pat Robertson is wrong is that Christians are not authorized to speculate about the perceived suffering or blessing of others. Remember Job’s friends thought that he must have done something awful to deserve such suffering/discipline, when what he was really expereincing was suffering for blessing.
Our relationship with Christ is a very private one. That’s the great thing about the soul, God gave us complete privacy, and only He (through knowledge of His Word) can be part of our thinking in that way. Therefore, it is up to each of us to evaluate our own spiritual status and determine if we are being disciplined or tested. There’s no way for another person to know. That’s why we are commanded not to judge others.
God does discipline us to bring us back in line, He only wants the best for us. The natural consequence of sin/running out of bounds is unhappiness. So the discipline comes from His LOVE, just as our own parents do the same.
There’s nothing like adversity to turn our eyes on Him. Human nature being what it is, when things are going along just peachy and we’re prosperous we tend to think it’s because we’re so great and we really deserve it.
Just as Christ died completely innocent of the crimes he was accussed of, there have always been good people that die inexplicably. Isn’t it conceivable that it could be God’s way of drawing people to Him, through the testimony of their lives?
Listening to the show right now and wanted to comment on several different issues brought up.
Tammy– I believe what you call a contradiction is God’s Permissive Will and His Overruling Will. It’s not hard to believe they both exist. Just as God’s Soverignty co-exists with man’s free will. (that is the naturally occuring system that I believe you are referring to) Either way, nothing happens apart from His Knowledge or Will.
I thought you believed in the supernatural. To deny that God is ultimately in control or that He couldn’t, through Divine Guidance of men be the author the Bible, is to deny that He is a Supernatural Being.
Having said that, where Pat Robertson is wrong is that Christians are not authorized to speculate about the perceived suffering or blessing of others. Remember Job’s friends thought that he must have done something awful to deserve such suffering/discipline, when what he was really expereincing was suffering for blessing.
Our relationship with Christ is a very private one. That’s the great thing about the soul, God gave us complete privacy, and only He (through knowledge of His Word) can be part of our thinking in that way. Therefore, it is up to each of us to evaluate our own spiritual status and determine if we are being disciplined or tested. There’s no way for another person to know. That’s why we are commanded not to judge others.
God does discipline us to bring us back in line, He only wants the best for us. The natural consequence of sin/running out of bounds is unhappiness. So the discipline comes from His LOVE, just as our own parents do the same.
There’s nothing like adversity to turn our eyes on Him. Human nature being what it is, when things are going along just peachy and we’re prosperous we tend to think it’s because we’re so great and we really deserve it.
Just as Christ died completely innocent of the crimes he was accussed of, there have always been good people that die inexplicably. Isn’t it conceivable that it could be God’s way of drawing people to Him, through the testimony of their lives?
Thanks for the discussion today.
Poor Pat Robertson. Not sure how he will interpret his own illnesses which advancing years may bring. God’s punishment?
The Bible teaches that it rains on the just AND the unjust. In the Old Testament, Job, a faithful servant of God, lost everything; not because he was being punished but because God allowed him to be tested. If Christians believe that God created this universe they understand that from the beginning there have been natural laws created by Him. Regardless of faith, or lack thereof, events occur according to natural law, as they were designed to occur. It’s not divine persection to have a stroke if you are overweight and advanced in years, it’s what happens to the body when it isn’t properly taken care of.
Perhaps TV evangelists, and heck, jihadists, for that matter, need to stop acting as if they are the mouthpiece of the Almighty. It is not for them or anyone to claim fallible, linear human perceptions of events to be the work of God.
Ms. Bruce:
You’re to be commended for opening your program to religious – particularly Christian – discussion. There are infinitely more varieties of belief in and about the Bible than there are flavors between Baskin Robins and Ben & Jerry’s combined. The issues I’ve heard you explore are weighty and complex, and it is really neat to hear you listen and ask serious questions rather than be condescending toward your callers.
Briefly about Pat Robertson (and anyone else who would to speak for God where God hasn’t spoken): If the scriptures teach anything, it is that men (er, people) are sinful, and that sin affects every aspect of being. Our knowledge and understanding are included in that: we cannot rationally claim God’s omniscience any more that we can claim his omnipresence. Scripture is clear in repeating that God’s ways are not our ways. To claim that I know why God did something, or that something happened for a particular reason, is really out there.
Scripture does teach that God is not only omniscient, but omnipotent: He can do whatever he wills to do in Earth and in the heavens. It also teaches that nothing happens that escapes His notice, and that nothing happens that is outside His will. Has God known from before there was time that PM Sharon would have a massive stroke in January, 2006? Absolutely. He works all things for good in accordance with His will.
Can we say that God is punishing Sharon for “dividing” Israel? Only by presuming to know the mind of God. I don’t think we can.
Secondly, about God punishing people. The Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments, speaks unrelentingly and consistently about God’s holiness. It’s what the sacrificial system laid out in such detail in the Pentateuch is about. Uzzah – the character God struck dead in the passage you referred to today – wasn’t killed because God is capricious or just decided that that particular day just needed somebody killed. God had laid out some pretty specific instructions about how the Ark of the Covenant was to be treated: it was to be carried on poles, not hauled in an ox cart. It (the Ark) was (or represented) God’s presence among His people, and it was not to be touched by human hands. When Uzzah reached out to steady the Ark, he was violating God’s specific command: he was killed because of disobedience to God’s law and indifference to God’s holiness.
(But, again, we risk great error if we presume to think we know God’s motives.)
Finally, in earlier programs – particularly that of 12/21 – you repeated that you have questions about the resurrection. I would commend to you the book, Who Moved the Stone by Frank Morison.
Again, thanks for your discussions about important issues.
I am not a “practicing Jew” – I don’t attend synagogue – not even on the High Holy Days. I do, however, believe there is a force (“God”) greater than any man or woman – except for Tammy, 😉 which gives us the power to behave, but doesn’t directly dictate how we should wield that power. (How’s THAT for a run-on sentence!!!)
We are each born with a mind, which I see as part of the gift of life, as is our free will, when we choose how to use our minds. I believe when we do bad things, it is our own conscience that punishes us, which I view as God letting us know we screwed-up. Let’s face it, no one is perfect – well, except for Tammy ;-).
If Arik Sharon was on “God’s” sh*t list, he would’ve known about it a long time ago. Now, as far as Arafat is concerned – yeah, “God” killed him!! 😉
PR is a menace? Have you ever watched PTL? If you haven’t, set aside 30min to 1 hr to watch it. Pat isn’t a menace, he’s a Old Testament Christian Minister, he literally believes what’s in the Bible, he has to! Anyway keep up the excellent work!
While I detest Robertson, it’s hard to disagree with this:
“Last year, he suggested that the threat to the United States from liberal “activist judges” was “probably more serious than a few bearded terrorists who fly into buildings,” a reference to the September 11 attacks.”
As a practical matter, liberal activist judges DO pose a greater threat than Islamic terrorist.
Kyle
What I perceive to be Christ’s message to us is that there are peaceful solutions to all problems, but in my ignorance as a mortal man, I don’t always see that solution. At the same time I believe that doing nothing can be more evil than actually committing other evil acts, which is why I support the war in Iraq.
In no way will I ever ascribe to the Lord that I worship such ignorance as needing to commit evil to accomplish His goals. Maybe He does, but I see no benefit in believing it.
What Pat Robertson is doing is projecting the evil that he feels toward Ariel Sharon onto the Lord in order to deal with the guilt his sub conscience is experiencing. By saying God wants the evil that he feels in his heart, he is doing nothing more than living in denial.
Of course Pat Robertson does not represent all Christians, or even all right-wing Christians, and yet this is the first time I can hearing someone say this explicitly.
So how about Ann Coultier? Defending us from political correctness, or spreading hatred and intolerance?
AllenG: how do you feel about those who see our involvement in Iraq as an evil act? Can these people be respected despite their different interpretation of White House policies, and of what God wants from them?
Just have to say this; Wow, what an amazing bunch of posts. The level of intellectual debate on this site is really high.
As a supernaturalist Christian I have no problem at all with the idea that God could either strike Ariel Sharon down, or not intervene on his behalf to help heal him from any malady that might overcome him. I believe that for any person on this planet. God is God and he has the power to do what he wants, when he wants. God is also just and he does what he does with an ultimately benevolent purpose. For instance, in the Book of Acts God killed Ananias and Saphira for lying about a gift they were giving. He killed them to add some fear to the church so people would understand that it was a serious thing to deal with a living God. I also believe that I will meet the both of them in heaven, at least according to my understanding of salvation theology.
All of that being said. I wouldn’t presume for a second to guess at God’s motives in someone elses life. I do believe that God speaks to us today, but if God told Pat that he struck down Sharon, it probably wasn’t for Pat to go blabbing to the world. I will repeat what I said before. I wish that Pat would shut his fat mouth. He says some good things at times but it is so overwhelmed by this idiocy that you can barely hear it.
God is not a micro-manager.
MIZEROCK: I fully respect those who disagree that it was a proper thing to invade Iraq. I have nothing but contempt for those who actively undermine our efforts there.
Tammy is absolutely right! She has all my applause on this. Christians must get some balls already for Christ’s sake and speak truth to power within their own religious establishment.
After all, did Jesus not set a fine example for that? Did he not rail against religious leaders of the day more so than against anyone else?
Spiritual, moral, social and financial corruption will rule evangelical Christianity as long as believers insist on being butt-kissing, unthinking, celebrity-worshipping idiots. What did God say about wanting a King?
-Did Pat Robertson not get the “Judge not” memo?
-Did PR forget the biblical statement that the ENTIRE earth and the fullness therein (and all that jazz) belongs to God? Already. Ahem.
-Did PR never read the biblical story where the crowd asks Jesus whether a sick man was ill because of the his own sins or the sins of his parents, and Jesus says neither?
-What does PR make of all the biblical admonitions to keep a close watch on your mouth, because every single stray word will be judged?
-PR really believes Mr. Sharon is going to hell, and were PR more honest, he say so forthrightly, (except for the fact this might cause him to not win so many awards from Jewish groups.)
The bible teaches that the Jews were singled out to be God’s chosen people, for a time and a purpose, that they might be the custodians of spiritual knowledge that the rest of mankind (the Gentiles) would eventually come into. God’s rule then would be co-extensive with the whole world. He would not be a territorial god like the gods of what they used to call “heathendom”. Hugh Martin’s 19th century exposition of the Book of Jonah is captivating on this.
PR’s website communicates that PR fancies himself quite the statesman. But PR is an aberration in the tradition of Christian statemen, who were traditionally intellectual titans, who oozed gracious humility and caution in their speech. PR prefers flights of imaginative fancy, during which he thinks any thought that flits through his brain is a communication from God. (Witness his appalling prayer sessions where he identifies these ‘feelings’ as proof people are being healed.) PR is devoted to anti-reason.
He is like the Modern Man theologian Francis Schaeffer predicted would lust for an Escape from Reason.
His wishy-washy, spontaneous, fuzzy, ethereal, synaptic spiritual ‘experiences’ which issue in authoritative proclamations are low-level vibey, sensate experiences, which makes him a close cousin of the hedonist.
I concur with the evangelical theologian and seminary professor who said during a class at seminary (which yes, I attended as a FT grad student) that the state of the evangelical church in America is “abysmal.”
The evangelical polling company Barna Research is proof: check out their surveys and polls. The majority of self-identified “born-again Christians” quite frankly don’t even know what the term means, and are almost completely biblically illiterate. This is disgusting. Why? Because they are also passive (rather than active/studious) disciples of various Christian leaders, and devoted to action.
Spoken as a former “insider” I can tell you that the majority of youth group leaders will tell you nowadays there’s no difference in the moral behaviour of Xtan teens vs. ‘secular’ teens. (Regarding getting coked up, sleeping around, etc.)
A recent evangelical poll finds that 36% of evangelical women are surfing online for porn. (God knows how many evangelical men are, but insiders know porn ‘addiction’ is an epidemic among the born again.)
Why do bring this up? Because these are the same “us” people crusading against the evil “them” out there. I’m sick of hearing Christian leaders bark about the gays, only to lend me a laptop that has girl-on-girl porn on it. Or to tell me that one year at the national assembly of one the Presbyterian Church in America there was “informal discussion” on the assembly floor among men, and they agreed that it’s “perfectly normal for a guy to be attracted to seeing two girls together” but not normal to get turned on over seeing 2 men together. This leader went on to suggest he might like to see some of that action.
Come on evangelical men, just how much $ do you spend on girl-on-girl porn? How many girl-on-girl mags are stashed under your bed? How can you justify crusading against the gay movement when you love the female part of it. (Or are you only for it when the outcome is your own pleasure? As opposed to two women together for their own pleasure, excluding you?)
Well, that’s why I wrote one on one of my seminary papers that the PCA should change it’s stance on homosexuality in order to be more accurate: They’re against gays except in cases where church officials get to watch. Lesbians.
I believe the evangelical leadership pushes the “us-them” combat mode, because they have been losing moral control over their people dramatically over the last 20 years. Even so, as their own empires decline, they prefer to point the finger and (in another sensate experience) rile people up in emotional/sensationalistic fashion (vs. rational, gracious debate) over the evil “them” out there somewhere.
Here in D.C. I was present a year ago when 2 conservative Christian leaders gloated over how much money crusading against “gay marriage” can bring in. One man, from a ‘family association’ said he went to a fund-raising seminar so he could make even more money off it. “So I took my homophobic little self over there,” he said with glee. I asked -wasn’t abortion the really big Christian social concern? Oh no – the gay thing is what really brings in the money, I was told. (So you see how gradually, money and power have replaced Christian impetus.)
I’m disgusted. This is disgusting. Shame on everyone participating in this phoniness. A lot of Christians need to shut their mouths, shut the doors of the church, and go home to contemplate their failures.
I just had to say it.
Well said, Mighty Mouse.
As a Jew, I sometimes wonder what the f**k we were chosen for?
Sorry – just got home from happy hour, and I’m feeling a little “salty”. Feel free to delete this, webmaster.
That’s hilarious, LesbianNeoCon. You’ve inspired me to pour a Jack & coke.
I actually haven’t been to church in ages,partly because of all this.
That’s hilarious, LesbianNeoCon. You’ve inspired me to pour a Jack & coke.
I actually haven’t been to church in ages,partly because of all this. So it’s chasing all sorts of people away.
Jack & coke are no friends of mine!! Whiskey makes me mean. And the last time I had Southern Comfort, I regretted it, and will probably never drink any kind of whiskey ever again!! I can’t even smell it without gagging. Cheers! 😉
Well, I gotta hear that story some day. (Over a Martini, Marguerita or something else, of course.)
If you tell me yours, I’ll tell you mine.
Well…About 7 years ago, a group of us went to the local watering hole one Friday night (a very cold Friday night, I might add for no particular reason) and I decided to try Southern and ginger ale. Someone told me it was very good. So, being tired of beer, I figured this was a good chance to see what all the fuss was about.
(Just so you know, I am holding back from becoming violently ill at this very moment!)
Ok , so…those things were going down pretty easily (hmmm, that could be taken a couple of ways…oh nevermind), and I was feeling no pain. I think I downed about 10 of them in 3 hours.
I can’t remember anything except wanting to die, and vomiting until my shoes came out my mouth! I still wear them as a reminder. 😉
It took 2 of my male friends to help me home. Not the proudest moment, for sure.
I have to stop now, take a few deep breaths, while sipping ice water, rocking back and forth, looking for my happy place. To be continued….?
Mighty Mouse,
I hear you on your reaction to the evangelical church. There is a huge backlash movement in the protestant church against organized religion. People are just tired of being bossed around by self serving jerks. Biblical Christianity has nothing to do with much of what goes on in churches today. Don’t be disheartened, if you are. God is still good, even if his message has been co-opted by selfish a**holes.
I too have done some seminary time, but not on the level you seem to be on. I had some really good professors who honestly loved God and were incredible intellectuals.
Lesbianneocon,
God chose the Jews as a vessel of truth to transcend the generations. He chose them because they are stubborn and stiff necked. The Jewish people were a constant pain in God’s a**, but it seems he made the right choice. He is after all God… Incidentally, as I see it God still has a physical covenant with the Jews, even from a Christian standpoint.
My brother, who has mental problems and is institutionalized, says that not everyone has a soul because it would be logistically impossible for God to keep track of all the story lines. He says that real life is like a movie, with main characters and supporting actors. Most people are supporting actors. God uses them to play parts in the lives of the main characters: the people who have souls. So, he would say, this explains the lives of the people like those who died in the West Virginia mining accident. They didn’t have souls. They were characters in the drama of someone else’s life, someone who has a soul. But like I said, he is not sane so this is just what he says.
An interesting discussion carried out with some decorum. As a Salon reader, I’m impressed at the tone and knowledge shown by many of the posts.
Let’s assume for the moment that Robertson was correct in believing that God would strike down anyone who would divide the land of Israel. I’m no Biblical scholar, and I make no pretension to understanding what the Bible says here, but let’s just assume that’s correct.
What are the conclusions we must draw to nonetheless agree with Robertson’s conclusions:
1. That God has been remarkably unconcerned about the division of the land since the death of Solomon, but is particularly concerned about Ariel Sharon’s positions in January 2006 (or, to be more exact, early Tevet, 5765). Remember, Gaza was never part of the Land of Israel, so giving it up to the Palestinians was not an act that divided the land; we’re only talking about future plans.
2. That the people who tolerated the existence of a Jordan (i.e., the entire international community), which in and of itself divides the land, are immune from any of God’s wrath, but Ariel Sharon is not.
3. That God knew that Sharon (a) could have actually pulled off a partition of states; and (b) considered it an end in and of itself and not a temporary means to his long-proclaimed goal of an Israel that covered the entire Biblical Land of Israel.
4. That every other person who was failing to do everything in his or her power to create such an Israel–including Pat Robertson, who, after all, is sitting on his duff in a TV studio instead of toting an Uzi to expand Israel–was off the hook, but not Sharon.
5. That killing or permanently disabling an old man somehow was the correct retribution against him for all of the above, as opposed to, say, arranging for him to lose the upcoming election, leaving his enemy Netanyaho in power (which, imho, would have been far more the equivalent of hell for Arik Sharon than either life in a vegetative state or the actual Gehenna).
Well, hooey.
The great Church father of the 5th Century, St. Augustine, would right now be siding with Tammy and not Pat Robertson. And Augustine was certainly a far greater theologian than a vulgarian like Robertson ever dreamed of being.
I can state this with confidence, because Augustine discussed this very topic in his epochal work, “Civitas Dei” (“City of God”). Augustine wrote that because God is so much greater than we are, we cannot begin to comprehend what’s on His mind. Therefore, we cannot discern God’s purpose in anything that happens in the world, that it is indeed blashemous for us to think that we can. Now, Augustine did believe that God has a plan for the world, and that History is indeed going somewhere because God wants it to. He knew this because Jesus had come and that was certainly a divine intervention. It’s just that we can’t begin to fathom what God’s purpose is behind anything else that happens.
Augustine wrote “City of God” shortly after the Sack of Rome of 410 A.D. This was the first time in 800 years that Rome had been sacked, and was evidence that the end of the Empire was not far off. The shock this caused throughout the Roman world was unimaginable. It was much worse that 9-11. EVERYBODY was horrified – Christians and pagans both.
And the reading of God’s mind and the accusations of divine retribution flew around even then. The pagans said that Rome had been sacked because the gods had abandoned Rome after Rome went Christian. Christians, on the other hand, had expected that because Rome had now embraced the One True Faith, God would surely reward Rome and be on its side. Imagine their surprise when God was apparently unfazed. Finally, they decided that the Sack of Rome must be delayed punishment for Rome’s previous decadence and persecution of Christianity.
It was into this environment Augustine penned “City of God.” It is the voice of a mature, sane, nondepraved adult speaking. One could call Augustine the ultimate non-narcissist. We need more of his thinking today.
Political Junkie: Thanks for the encouragement. I often wish the press was better connected into the evangelical movement, b/c then they would know where to find the real stories. Instead of hysteria over the supposed coming ‘theocracy,’ they might find out there is a dissenting faction within, of well-known intellectual titans, who are so disgusted with what the “evangelical church” has become, that they are seriously considering coming up with another descriptor, so they can separate and distinguish themselves from the pack.
I heard that straight from theologian/author R.C. Sproul.
One of the last churches I went to was wholly given over to marketing mania: on July 4th they advertised the indoor fireworks they would have during the worship service, along with Marines rappelling form the ceiling. (Lord, who will deliver us from the showbiz?) Anther day, you could wear your favorite team football jersey to church and a football star would address the congregation. (In pigskin we trust?) Then there was the wretched knee-slappin’ country music everyone loved, performed occassionally.
I reminds me of the Annie Dillard line about how she’d much rather encounter the “dark night of the soul” -whatever it was- than face the dread hootenanny in the church.
Showbiz aside, this wealthy downtown church spent only $14,000/year on missions, and their big marketing emphasis was on attracting future occupants of the ritzy condos going up just east of the church -vs. reaching out the the poor occupants north of the church.
LesbianNeoCon: That’s a funny story, but I feel for you. 10! Wow! They must’ve tasted good. I’d tell you my story but this is a family site. Well, I’ll tell you a bit. I’m not sure what was in the concoction that finally did me in, it was mixed by a bar owner I knew. (I was out drinking with a friend.)
But before that night, I used to hate seeing these stupid men drink too much in the bar- there was usually about 3 of them, and then they would fall into the bar stools in front of the bandstand. I used to always think “I can’t stand these idiots. They act like kindergartners.” Then when I drank that one drink too many- it was all like slo-mo…I was falling, falling, slowing, and my last thoughts were: “Oh great! I’ve become one of the idiots! I’m falling into the barstools!”
If God were going to micro-manage our lives, why would He have given us free will?
Mighty Mouse,
Your story about the Marines rappelling from the ceilng (what does that have to do with salvation anyway?) reminds me of a christmas production I went to at the Crystal Cathedral. It was a beatiful show, spiritual and moving, with a huge cast and a good size menagerie with including camels and everything. (I was waiting for an animal to poop during the wisamn scence, but no luck.) Anyway, the Cathedral had hired a flying team to whiz the angels around the auditorium for the different scens that involved them. It was a little embarrsing because I was there with family and the angel costumes were a bit sheer and when they were backlit, well.. At the end of the show they had what we refered to later as the “ANGEL-ORAMA, there must have been fifteen of them flying around the place. Before that is was a beatifully done show, I actually teared up when Mary sang, but I came away with the feeling that showbiz ultimately took over. Kind of indicative of large church america.
PoliticalJunkie: Funny about the angels! I used to perform in one of those big Xmas Xtravaganzas. I could tell some hysterical stories about the behind-the-scenes stuff.
I think one core issue is Protestant evangelical churches have become “all about me” whereas they used to be “all about God.”
A friend told me he heard an NPR program about a guy who went ‘undercover’ in a church to find out what the religious right was all about. His conclusion? Oh, it’s nothing to worry about, they’re all just practicing amateur therapy on one another (!)
Hello Tammy, I am a “born-again” Christian with views similar to Robertson’s but I would not give an exact reason for someone’s illness because of what God said to Job when he was debating these things with his “friends” who said he had sinned and was being punished. Quite a good book, good debate and has been said to be the first book of the Bible ever written. I must add though, I have been studying God’s anger in the Bible (looking for His view of abortion) and we never hear about that in todays church. I wrote a Bible study and gave it to quite a few pastors about how God reacted to Israels mistakes and I heard it wasn’t balanced. Too much judgment, not enough about God’s love. The reason I wrote it from the angle I did is because we don’t hear enough about THE WHOLE OF GOD. No one likes to hear the rough stuff. But God is justice along with love, and because He is love, He is just. What would our country be like without justice? Very lop-sided. I have a copy of “Amazing Grace” on my wall and a couple of days ago I read it again. We are all familiar with the first verse, “Amazing grace! How sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me! I Once was lost, but now am found, Was blind,but now I see”. The second verse jumped out at me. “‘Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, And grace my fears relieved; How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed!” You see, because God loves us, because God is perfectly just (we over-react and want to shoot someone for pulling in front of us while getting off the expressway), He wants to warn us about the consequences of our actions and that we will be called into account for every word spoken and every action performed. He teaches us to fear Him, and THEN He teaches us of HIs love for us and NOT to fear because He will even take care of our punishment if we believe He will. He is our lawyer and will also serve our sentence. But He is also our judge. I do believe God is in control and give us our freedom to choose Him or not. He calls everyone’s name, its up to us to stop and listen.
Pat Robertson apparently has more in common with the jihadists than with most Christians. Imagine what he might do if he had real power? Theocracies tend to drift into brutality rather more easily than other forms of government because leaders can claim divine license to do anything at all.